Texas Is Building a New Stock Exchange to Challenge NYSE & NASDAQ

If anybody's going to challenge New York, it's Texas. We are an exchange being built by issuers for issuers.

Nicole Chambers is the global managing director at the Texas Stock Exchange, leading a bold movement reshaping the financial landscape of America.

We've seen a push out of New York into Texas, and Dallas being that financial hub is growing to be a global financial center. And I have no doubt in 5 or 10 years we will be next to London and Hong Kong.

After nearly 2 decades at Nasdaq, helping companies access the public markets, she's bringing that expertise home to Texas where blockchain innovation and capital formation converge.

This is the new center of gravity for the financial centers of the U.S. A true pro-business entrepreneur exchange with the ethos of Texas that has really allowed us to thrive in this state.

How does it affect business people here in this community to have the Texas Stock Exchange here?

We are the complete growth engine of the U.S. In the future, you won't have to get on a plane and fly to New York to make an investment decision. Those decision makers will be here in the state of Texas.

Nicole, welcome to The Deal Table. Welcome to the pig room at Old Parkland. Have you been in the pig room before?

No, and I didn't know this was a real pig room. I was concerned I was getting tricked into coming into a hazing room, so I'm glad to see it as a pig room.

That doesn't sound like a legitimate thing. No, we're filming in the pig room.

It's a bit scary.

Yeah, when Lane first gave me a tour of this place and we came in this room, like, this is where we're filming. You know, it's so unique. And what's crazy is because we filmed multiple times over the past year here, there's new pigs.

They just keep appearing.

They do. They're like, I think there's a coconut pig over there from somebody's trip to Hawaii or something.

So I could just bring a pig in here and leave it.

You know, there's a curator of all things at Old Parklands. There's a special curator.

A pig curator. Gosh.

I don't know that the pig room has its own unique curation, but I would suspect that if something just showed up, there would— somebody would become aware of it.

Okay.

So, you know, this is the creation of Harlan Crow, our benefactor here at Old Parkland. That is his painting of a pig behind you in red.

Gosh, I love that.

Yeah. So if it's your pig room, you get to put your pigs.

And as the Texas Stock Exchange is actively looking for, you know, a new home, you know, maybe Old Parkland is the home. Because didn't you say the New York Stock Exchange?

They are. Yes, they are. That's to my knowledge. They'll be moving in here. But our mascot is a bull. We're bringing the bull market home. So we Don't need the pig yet, but we'll let you know.

The pig doesn't fit into the bull and bear equation.

I'm sure there's other rooms here, though. Yeah, I don't park them. They have to be in the pig room.

For the right price, maybe they could create a bull room.

This is true.

Price for everything.

Price for everything. Well, we're excited about the Texas Stock Exchange. I went to work for Dean Witter Rentals in 19— oh, my goodness. What was it? It was 1980, 45 years ago. And I went to New York for 30 days to train, and of those days was working with the specialists on the floor of the exchange. So I had my— and it was so intriguing to me to watch how that worked. They were market makers, and they theoretically had to stand in the breach when there wasn't an efficient market, and they had their own capital at risk. It was really, really fascinating to me as a young man. There's been a huge evolution in the capital markets, and now you're part of that. Um, so, uh, you've had a career in capital markets. Tell us how you got your start. How did you get on this path to where you are now? Sure.

Well, I, I kind of like to say it was in my DNA. I was, uh, raised by a father and grandfather that were venture capitalists and took companies public in the '90s. So I feel like I was able to see kind of that evolution of being a private company, going to public, uh, but really got my start after I graduated from SMU and, uh, NASDAQ hired me in 2008. And I grew my career at Nasdaq. And over the 17 years there, I was able to learn the listings business, how to bring companies that want to IPO to the markets, show them the differences in the exchanges, as well as retain companies that were listed on the New York— on the Nasdaq Stock Exchange.

Interesting. So I remember from early in my career that, you know, if you weren't a New York Stock Exchange company, you know, there was an aura to that. And I watched over my career, I sold my wealth management firm, I don't know, 10, 12 years ago. But, you know, the NASDAQ ultimately sort of almost took the place of the New York Stock Exchange. And you had major, you know, some of the largest companies in America listing there. So there's been a steady evolution.

Absolutely. Things change.

Does the American exchange still exist?

It is— New York Stock Exchange owns that exchange. It is a completely separate exchange, but that is a New York Stock Exchange.

Different listing requirements.

Exactly, a little lower tier.

Very specific set of companies that listed there. So why, why the Texas Stock Exchange?

Yeah, I had an opportunity to leave a great career at NASDAQ to build something that can really change the markets again. As you saw the evolution with NASDAQ and electronic trading, we're, we're at an inflection point in our public markets. We've seen kind of an all-time low, a bottoming out of companies that have remained public. We're just at above 4,400 today compared to to over 9,000 in the '90s. So that's almost a 45%.

Say that again, 4,400 today versus how many?

Public companies today. Over 9,000 in the '90s.

Wow.

So we're at a decrease of almost 45% of public companies that want to stay public. And then you compare that with exchanges worldwide, they've seen an increase by 45%. And in emerging markets, 235%. So it's not a global problem. It's a US problem. Companies don't want to be or stay public, it's going public has been less of a desirable outcome. They've taken private money and stayed private for as long as they can before they can go public. So, you know, what are the reasons for that? And you can point fingers in a lot of directions, but the exchanges have become regulators of companies and ultimately an obstacle and a cost center and an unfriendly partner in this public company space, in this public world space, which is unfortunate because the US markets are an envy of the world. And we need to make sure that we give companies that option to have public capital and use that for their benefit in growing their company.

So is it strictly the— I would assume that part of that is the exchanges becoming regulators, and the other part would just be the burden of being a publicly traded company. Michael Dell, a Texan who started Dell Computer out of his dorm room at the University of Texas while I was drinking a lot of beer instead, took his company public and then took it private. You know, there is— Harold Hamm did.

That with Continental Resources in Oklahoma and reduced his operating costs by 20%.

Right.

So Twitter right now, I mean, I know Twitter wasn't Elon Musk before, but he took it private. So then cut like everything out.

So part of it is I don't want to deal with the burdensome regulation that the exchange is going to impose on me. Part of it may be I'd rather be a private company and not deal with the public. They're calling me and asking why my earnings are down a penny this quarter. But that's still that significant of a decline in public companies. I didn't realize it was exclusive to the US.

It is.

That's very telling.

So what we think is, and what we can see is under the duopoly, corporates haven't been a focus. The exchanges that are available today, there's just two. So, you know, Nasdaq in New York, if you think about where they've put their money to invest, it's not been in the listings or corporate business. It's been in growing their fintech trans— franchise as a Nasdaq company acquired Adenza for $10 billion a few years ago. That's very telling where their focus of growth is. And ICE, the parent company to the New York Stock Exchange, has focused on growing their mortgage business. So it just hasn't been a voice that has been heard is the, is the corporate voice. And for us, that's the complete focus of the Texas Stock Exchange. We are an exchange being built by issuers for issuers, really looking at this as a true pro-business entrepreneur exchange with the ethos of Texas that has really allowed us to thrive in this state and why the next exchange should be based in Texas is this is the new center of gravity for the financial financial centers of the US. We've seen a push out of New York, a push out of the East and West Coasts, out of Delaware, out of Illinois, into Texas. And Dallas being that financial hub is growing to be a global financial center. And I have no doubt in 5 or 10 years, we will be next to London and Hong Kong when it comes to being a global financial center.

So on that topic, like culture, we previously had Michael Levy in here, and he was talking about if you have a If you want to have a future in securities, in trading, you have to be on Wall Street because the culture there is just, you can't do that anywhere else. So taking that thought process and then that plus the whole process, the thought process of don't California my Texas with other people coming in, how do we not Wall Street our Y'all Street?

That's exactly it. Well, first of all, it's unfortunate that you should have to work or know somebody on Wall Street to do business on Wall Street. That's incredibly exclusive and exclusionary, and it's not attainable for somebody that's in Middle America building their business out of their garage. If you think about, you know, Michael Dell in his dorm room or Bill Gates or Jeff Bezos, they were not on Wall Street, and yet they've built some of the largest companies in the world. So for us, the Y'all Street, or at least to me I should say, is a Wall Street for all. It's not just taking a funny name or nomenclature. How can we make Wall Street accessible? And what better community, what better environment to put it in than the state of Texas, which encourages people to do business with less red tape. Grow your family, grow a business, innovate. That is the culture we've created here. And that is the culture that we should see going forward for corporates. It's not working on Wall Street. We're seeing more financial professionals leave Wall Street and move to Texas and the Southeast quadrant than ever before. There are more financial professionals that live and work in Texas than the state of New York. So we're already seeing that migration. So I think the Wall Street culture, while it might have worked in the '80s and '90s, that's not right for business today in the 2020s and beyond.

Well, and on that, because like, you know, I've had friends, you know, bring people here to like specifically Old Parkland. And they've made sure that if they're bringing in somebody who's not from Texas, Hey, make sure you don't— here's very relationship. Like, if I'm going to pitch Lane, don't expect money from Lane today. Develop that relationship, have a friendship, have a true, like, let's go to lunch, let's go to dinner, and know each other before we do business. And I don't know, like, I've never really done business in New York or other places, but it just feels like when people do come here that they're surprised that people actually want to have some sort of relationship before they do business.

It's not only relationships, but it's wanting to lift each other up. I, I've worked and had the opportunity to do business and see business done in, in almost every state of the US and, and globally. And never have I seen a place like Texas, more specifically Dallas, that wants Dallas to win before each other, right? We want to see all boats rise. And I think that's a really unique mentality that again, has allowed us to grow at an exponential rate. And attract top talent. And people want to move here because of that exact reason. It's not a transactional place. It— people want to have skin in the game here, whether it's because of a relationship or a reputation. And I think that's why we've seen so much success happen in, in again, such a short amount of time. And it's only going to continue.

I saw, I actually read the Sunday paper. I like the physical Sunday paper.

Yeah. I would've never guessed with your gray hair.

Well, exactly. You know, I'm, I'm the last guy, you know, I'll be the last guy buying a newspaper and reading it on.

The I was going to say, okay, Boomer, but you beat me to it.

Except for the job section, I throw that away, but I read every other section, including the comics. And there was an article about some hoopla over a waiver of taxes for the exchange. And so to me, this culture of Texas is business-friendly, issuer-friendly, to your point on the Texas Stock Exchange means less regulatory burden, less fees and expenses. And so define how the Texas Stock Exchange will differentiate itself from the other marketplaces.

Absolutely. So, you know, that's a great example, Lane, of the work we're doing. So an exchange should be an advocate for business, making business easier to do, making business cheaper to do, and ultimately allow companies to focus on what they need to do to accomplish their next chapter. So for us, the exchange, again, once you're on the Texas Stock Exchange, we want to signal to investors as the high quality company. So we will have high listing standards, but we want to then leave you alone to do your business and ultimately advocate for your behalf, whether it's at the state level, at the federal level, or with the SEC. And the capital markets package that you referenced was something that we were incredibly proud to help write and support in this most recent, uh, legislative session in Austin, which includes this constitutional amendment to ban a transaction tax in the state of Texas. It's on the ballot this November. So make sure to vote. What that does is it really solidifies that Texas is a place to continue to do business, not now, but in the future. If you think about what's happening in New York with the mayoral race, Mondani has said multiple times that if he was to win, the transaction tax would be put in place and ultimately cost exchanges a tremendous amount of money to do business there. The state of New Jersey was was going to implement that transaction tax in 2020, 2021, and that's really how this all got started was the exchanges were having to look elsewhere given the extreme cost that was going to create for them. Governor Abbott, of course, hosted them and showed them the tremendous opportunity that Texas had from a land perspective, but New Jersey backed off. So the threat of not being able to do your business is always looming in New Jersey and in New York. So in Texas, we want to remove that doom and gloom essentially and put that on the ballot. Beyond that, that's certainly a very specific amendment, but what we passed, and it was passed bipartisan and unanimously, which was allows companies to choose an alternate to Delaware. So Delaware has shown to be an unfriendly business environment, not only with the recent court cases, but in general, it's an extremely expensive place to be incorporated. Texas, being the pro-business state that we are, needed to strengthen our business courts.. And with our capital markets package that was passed, it allows companies that alternative. They can incorporate in the state of Texas and either headquarter here or list on a Texas exchange and have the benefit of the business judgment rule codification so that they have the removal of litigation for directors and officers barring intentional misconduct. Their D&O insurance premiums reduce greatly at that point. And then the second big piece of that bill is allowing for the proxy and the shareholder threshold to be increased. So now if you want to bring forth a shareholder proposal, they have to own 3% of the company for at least 6 months and solicit two-thirds of the shareholder base. What that does is it removes a lot of derivative lawsuits that management and board spend a lot of time and money on.

So this, that's very friendly. And I wasn't aware that that was part of the package. It's interesting. I'm, I run a lower middle market M&A shop, and I've started noticing private equity firms that are inquiring about my clients no longer using Delaware as the state for the adjudication of disputes. They're, in fact, some of them are using Texas, which is interesting to get a Connecticut-based PE firm having Texas as a substitute for Delaware in those documents.

Yeah, we've already seen it. So of the public companies today, I think 3,200 of them are domiciled in Delaware and only 52 in Texas. This was before, of course, the capital markets package. I think we'll start to see that shift and give companies— again, we're here to add competition. We are here to allow, again, for companies to have a choice. And this Delaware is just a piece of it. So we're going to do exactly what we just did. We're not even open for business. Like, I can't take one company away from New York or NASDAQ yet. But ultimately, we are going to do that same work at the federal level and at the SEC level because we need to show a reduction in cost in a way that taking PE money or private money is just as attractive as going public.

Yeah. So with your role as, you know, title being Global Managing Director, like, it seems like, like, what does that role mean? Like, what is it you're actually doing? Because from the The cheap seats looking at what you're doing online and just the various events I've seen you at, it seems like it's part policy, part marketing, part sales, part recruiting, and part cheerleader. Like, where do you see your role right now? And then as this exchange comes online, how does your role change?

Yeah, and I manage all the globes too. You should have that. No, you're absolutely right. This is an interesting and fantastic job. I have had the most fun in the last 13 months of being employed at Techsy than I've had anywhere else. You know, for me, they brought on a listings person, which was my role at the NASDAQ, well before we filed a Form 1. And the reason is we need to talk to companies. We have a blank slate. We don't have 230 or 50 years plus of legacy issues or amendments or rules that we have to wade through or fix. We can start fresh. And so for us, it was really important as we build this exchange that we build it based upon real-life feedback and real-life issues. So I have been speaking with companies, both public and private, of all industries, of all market caps, of all locations, to make sure that what we're building is truly what is needed and that we can really create something great now and for the future. So yes, I spend a lot of time in kind of that just market intelligence, market education conversation. Certainly a good cheerleader for the Texas Stock Exchange. And ultimately, yes, making sure companies are aware that now there's a choice. The Texas Stock Exchange, while we are homegrown here, we have national and global ambitions. So this is something we're looking to educate and talk to companies about all over the place. And that's been a big focus of my role.

One of the enlightening things to me is I think, you know, when I was younger, you look at politics, you look at, you know, business, and it just seems so far away. Like, oh, the politicians are so far away. Bloomberg is so far away, both in distance, but also just in being able to connect. But through working here at Arbor Belmont and with some of our clients, like, you know, being friends with some of the people that you do work now with, and it just seems like there's so much more access than I thought 20 years ago. Like, it's similar to like how if you go to SMU, you can actually connect with some of the major donors, some of the major alumni. But I don't know where I'm going with this, other than the fact that, like, you know, you're a high-up person with the Texas Stock Exchange, like, hey, let's connect. Cool. Let's talk. And I don't know if that— if you have that at the New York Stock Exchange or the Nasdaq. And I don't know if you would even have that with the Texas Stock Exchange in 10 to 20 years from now. But it feels like right now is a great time to, like, if you have ambitions or connections or just wanting to connect, it just feels like it's attainable and accessible. And the only reason I'm bringing it up is like every time I see a post, I know like 3 of the people that are in the group photos with the governor. And I'm like, oh, that's cool.

You're right. And I think it's funny. It's such a juxtaposition to what we're hearing, which is AI is taking everything over, which I was speaking at SMU and I've had a chance to talk to a lot of students and all of this, which has been fantastic, which is is honestly level up on your relationships, work on those skills. Having interpersonal skills is not an old thing, just like being able to write in cursive, right? I mean, I think that's how people see it these days, which is still needed, maybe less so. But ultimately being able to carry a conversation, connect with somebody on an individual level, maintain your reputation with that person, that is hugely important. AI can't take that over. AI can't. Take my job over at this point, knock on wood. But ultimately, that skill never fades. And I think it's unfortunate that it seems like it has. But it goes, it goes back to your comment on culture. I think, you know, there's this idea that if you're not in New York, you're not important. And that's certainly not the case anymore. Finance has become incredibly decentralized, you can work from anywhere in the world. And so therefore, you should be able to have relationships anywhere you want to have them and building them is on you though, right? I think it goes back to Ryan, your hard work that you've done in your career, Lane, the hard work you've you've done, which is I know those people because I've maintained that and I've made an effort. And I think we've seen a lack of that. And we're really excited that the TechSeed ethos and culture is about having those relationships.

I will make one comment as well. I don't know why I led with, we'll make a comment, obviously make a comment.

I mean, it's your podcast.

I know. Elias, edit that out. It seems like when you're talking about AI, it seems like it's helped this conversation out a lot because, you know, before the AI just went like, oh, ChatGPT, talk, talk, talk, it seemed like fintech, fintech, fintech, and where, hey, we're going to, you know, we're going to make an NFT of everybody's companies. And then maybe possibly the exchanges will be irrelevant because it all live on the blockchain. Well, it seems like all that conversation stopped because the AI conversation has sucked up all of that air. And I don't know where I'm going with that other than that, like, how does fintech play in your world, if at all?

I mean, fintech's an incredibly important part in that it, it's a great incubator of great companies, right? And those companies generally want to have access to the public market. So for us, they're a fantastic customer, but it's an important part of a growing, a growing ecosystem. I think for us, we see this as a chance to really grow that part of Dallas. And in Texas, I think if you look at I, you know, this is such a diverse city of industries, such a diverse state of industries, but two that are kind of on the up and coming is on the healthcare biotech side, but then also on the fintech. I think that that's really two missing pieces and they're an important part of the ecosystem. They can be a tremendous moneymaker for companies. They can be great opportunities for jobs. So for us, it's not so much that we need them from to do our job, They're absolutely needed in the ecosystem that we work in. And for us, the exchanges have been needed for 200+ years. So let's give recognition where recognition is needed. We haven't seen them go away. I know that technology is changing at a rapid pace, but at the same time, we aren't. I don't know. I don't pay for my groceries with Bitcoin or stablecoin. And I don't know if I will in the next 10 years. Maybe I will. I mean, I use Apple Pay now, so who knows. But I do think that while the conversations are moving fast and maybe things are growing at a fast rate, people aren't adopting them at that quick of a rate. So I think we'll still see the need for exchanges for many years to come.

Talk to me about the mechanics of the exchange. And I apologize for my ignorance. I feel like I should know this, but the New York Stock Exchange still has a physical presence. There are specialists on the floor, even though most of the trading is electronic, as I understand. Is this a physical exchange? Is there a place or is it an electronic exchange? And you, you need to get people to list, but you would also need market makers. Walk me through how the Texas Stock Exchange will work in that fashion.

Well, and just I think to clarify, not to burst your bubble, but all trading occurs in data centers in New Jersey. So even the New York Stock Exchange.

At the TechScap conference. So, so sorry, I forgot the woman's name, Rachel. She said it about 17 times to really iterate.

It's full stop. I think, yeah, full stop multiple times.

Just destroyed my history of the exchange.

The DMM, I think that was really taken away during COVID when everything had to be removed from the floor, people, and it showed that everything was electronic. The New York Stock Exchange has moved their Chicago Medallion to Texas and they've said that's a completely electronic exchange. So I think we just go back to that things have changed. But yes. So from a market perspective, a couple of things. We are building our trading engine and matching engine from scratch. We decided that if we are truly going to be a disruptor, we need to really disrupt the technology that's already out there and available today from a trading perspective. I have a company that has 800 years of exchange experience with with less than 100 people. So we have hired the most tremendous individuals. And on the tech side, they are veterans of industry. I think of the stat we use, there's 8 coders in the world that can code an exchange. And we have almost half of them working for us. So we are not doing anything that's not amazing and leveraging tremendous hardware. So we plan to be as competitive as the fastest market, which is NASDAQ, if not more competitive, which of course is what trading is all about. Who can be the fastest and cheapest? We will have a market maker model. Absolutely. That will be how we focus on making sure that liquidity is there and that we have companies that have the confidence that they are going to get traded in a quick and easy way on the Texas Stock Exchange.

So building something like this obviously is a very CapEx-heavy endeavor? Like, is it like whoever's— and I, again, I'm completely ignorant on, like Lane said, the mechanics of it. But is it one of those things where everybody that's investing in it, they just know it's going to be 10, 20 years before they make a dollar? Or is it like, hey, once we turn the lights on, we're off to the races? Like, how does it— and then also, like, how much money does it take to actually get something like this off the ground?

Yes. I mean, I will say part of a reason I could leave Nasdaq and feel confident in coming over to the Texas Stock Exchange was the investors. So if you think about who's invested in us, we have the largest active, the largest passive, and the largest retail brokers in the world. So Citadel, BlackRock, and Charles Schwab. Ultimately, they know the market and they know that if there's, um, they're gonna put money to work, it's because they need it to change for the better. We have a tremendous amount of the liquidity in, uh, the market today invested in us. But to be honest, most of our money comes from private wealth. And that gives us a long runway. We have the chance to do this right. We have patient capital behind us and we have investors that represent business leaders and public companies. So they are directly responsible for making decisions of companies that list on New York or NASDAQ today. And they have said, we need to get this right. We need to make a change. So we have a long, decades-long runway because to make change is really not overnight. Yes, Yes, it is CapEx heavy. We certainly appreciate the investment dollars we've, we've had. I will say we're incredibly proud to have filed our Form 1 as the most well-capitalized exchange in history. So we are certainly coming to the table with some tremendous capital that is willing to take that risk. And to be honest, I don't think it's going to take us 10 years to make a profit. You know, for us, we have some really big ambitions. And we have an opportunity to make some money much sooner than that. So we're really excited with the technology coming online in Q1 of 2026 to start showcasing what we've built. And then from there, we will start listings of ETPs, so exchange traded products, and then corporate listings beyond that.

So am I naive to think that for BlackRock and Schwab, this is not about getting a return on the investment they make in the exchange in a traditional way? They put in dollars and they get a return on those dollars. I got to believe they feel like they're creating something that's going to benefit them as investors in the marketplace or facilitators of investing in my— I certainly.

Can'T speak for their rationale, but I think it would be both, to be honest. I think what we have seen from the MIEX IPO, which happened last month, the Miami Exchange, they're not a listings exchange. They're completely a trading option exchange. They had a tremendous IPO. So the people that invested there received a great amount of money back. But yes, I think you're seeing that there's a both. There's a need to change, but there's also hopefully a good return.

There's a strategic investor. Absolutely. They may very well get a nice return on that investment.

Absolutely. We have been very thoughtful.

David Fink of BlackRock, is that? Larry Fink. Larry Fink. I saw him on 60 Minutes this week and he was talking about creating investments into privately held companies, which is a whole nother sort of fascinating thing, but they're pushing. I mean, their portfolio has what, 12 digits behind it?

So it's significant. And I think it goes to show that there's just not enough public cap, public things to invest in. Exactly. So that's why we need to look at bringing more companies public sooner. We don't want companies to wait till they're $30 billion to go public. We'd love to bring back a mid-cap IPO and have them be successful. So again, we need to unwind the red tape, reduce the cost, and allow these companies to go public sooner.

Yeah, I was, I was really shocked by the 4,400 publicly traded companies number that you quoted. In my world of middle market businesses, you know, when you look at the small and medium-sized businesses in the US, let's just say market caps $100 million and below, it's 28 million companies, right? And there are 4,400 publicly traded companies.

And only 7 Mag 7, you know what I mean? So I mean, not everybody is Amazon or Google. And we think that it, you know, we can bring back companies and give them a chance to go public sooner. We can also change people's lives. Think about when Apple went public or Google. You could change your life if you invested in that company early on.

Yeah.

Um, I don't think many people can do that with a Klarna or a Figma at this point, just given how large they are when they come out. So we really want to encourage companies to come out sooner to access the greatest capital in the world, but then also give retail a chance to change their life, give them a chance to make some great investments in the next generation of companies.

So go ahead.

I'll just say to that point, one of my favorite stories or comparisons, juxtapositions is Walmart versus Trader Joe's. Yeah. Because Trader Joe's gets so much credit for treating their employees so well. They pay them so well and everybody loves working there and everybody craps on Walmart. But Walmart has been the single greatest maker of millionaires in history because of all their early employees that got shares in the company IPO. And now they're all in their generational wealth. Like, I don't even know what the top 10 is, but I think most of them, a lot of them came from the Walton family. Oh, absolutely. But it just goes to your point of like being able to change people's lives at scale.

Absolutely. I mean, as employee number 5, I hope that's the case for the Texas Film Industry. So I'm definitely aiming for that.

How many employees do you have now?

Gosh, I think all in we're at just about 100. So as you can imagine, we staffed up really quickly on legal to get to the SEC and on tech to build our technology. So we have had Jim Lee, our CEO, who is the leader behind us and in front of us, has just hired the most amazing people. And so we will start and continue to grow as now we've got approved by the SEC in September. We will start to ramp up our staffing in other areas.

So as number 5, that's got to make you and you and your family incredibly proud, right?

I hope so. I don't know. My kids don't seem very impressed by me, but I hope they will be at some point in time. How old are they? A 12-year-old boy and an 8-year-old girl.

No, they're not going to be impressed.

You know, it's not a tangible job. I can't show them like what I make or what I do.

Yeah, but when they're, when they're taking the helicopter supply.

Yeah. You know, when I, yeah, exactly. When they're using my beach house in St. Apart, they'll be thrilled.

Like, which private jet do I want to sit today?

Exactly. I mean, they better be thanking me then.

Exactly. Well, my two daughters, and when they went from about 12 to 21, you know, they just didn't like me at all. In fact, they would ask me to drop them off like, you know, blocks away from their destination so they wouldn't have to be seen in my car. So the 13, I think was 13, 14 was probably— They better like you.

Now because he's a fairly new grandfather and literally just spent the full summer playing granddad.

Yeah.

Well, yeah.

Thanks for giving me so much to look forward to.

I appreciate that. You know, you just got a few years, right? It'll work itself out.

Maybe yours will be different. Going back to the exchange, like when this first was announced, not me, I want to make this very clear that I never had this thought process, but a lot of people are like, this just seems like a hubris play, kind of like, hey, just, we just want a shiny object, you know, almost like the the Longhorn handlebars that go on front of a Cadillac. But like, but through talking to you and just in this conversation, like, oh, this is an actual thing because of the regular, the regulation side, the regulatory side. Like, what are, is that the main benefit or, and is it, is it that plus, hey, we want to help some of these smaller companies that don't necessarily because have a chance? Because if, if it used to be 9,000 listings and now there's 4,400, But if it used to be only 2 exchanges, now there's 3, doesn't that dilute the pool even more?

I think what it does is it causes the New York Stock Exchange and NASDAQ to wake up to what's not working. I mean, at the end of the day, a duopoly, you're technically going to win 50% of the time. So now when you can only win a third of the time, you start to pay attention. And I think we've already seen that they are given their moves here and claiming some stake make in Texas. And, and we see that as incredibly flattering. If anybody's going to challenge New York, it's Texas. Everything is in our favor. If you think about it, 1 in 10 public companies are headquartered here. The New York Stock Exchange has more headquartered and listed companies in the state than any other state. There are a tremendous— say that again. The New York Stock Exchange has said they have more companies listed in Texas than any other state. Wow. Uh, so for us, there's 1 in 10 public companies based here, 52 of the Fortune 500. We've had over 170 corporate headquarter relocations since 2020, and corporate expansions continue. Look at Fisher Investments. They announced earlier this year they were doing 2 or 3 new buildings. Look at Goldman, the building that they're having here. Schwab. Schwab. And you know, for us, if you think about the Southeast Quadrant, we are the complete growth engine of the US GDP and population growth comes from the Southeast Quadrant, that Texas, is a part of. So for us to challenge New York, yeah, it's not just hubris, it has to be legit. And I think we've already seen that there is going to be a recognition that this is a formidable— we are a formidable competitor.

And you know what's interesting? And I don't necessarily want to open up the door too far into the political world, but from the outside looking in, and this might be an obvious statement, but New York City and New York, it seems like their number one export is financial services. If New York City keeps on interjecting a political climate that keeps cutting themselves at the knees, it only makes sense for somebody else like Texas to come in and say, okay, cool, y'all don't want that, we could take that on.

If you think about it, we wouldn't be here without the tremendous Texas leadership. This Texas miracle that they've called it and we are in is the result of Governor Perry and of course, Governor Abbott. Great work. And again, removing red tape and making this a great place to do business regardless of your politics, that's just, that's what's been done. So we would not be here without that Texas leadership support and the idea that they're going to continue to work on behalf of the state of Texas to make it better to be a business here or a citizen here. And for New York, it's unfortunate. I mean, New York is a tremendous city and I'm sad to see what's happening there, but you're right. I mean, the antithesis of socialism is capitalism and Texas is about capitalism.

So I read, and I won't try to give the exact quote because I'll be wrong, from the paper that you read. Yeah, the newspapers that I read every Sunday. I love you. Yeah, right. That the economy of Texas, if Texas were a country, would be a top 10 economy in the world. Number 7. Number 7. Thank you. I was going to say that, but I was scared I'd be wrong. So you have confidence in— Yes, we.

Just beat Italy and we're about to beat France.

Really, Italy? I didn't even think Italy would be in the top 10.

I mean, they've got all those shoes.

And— Yeah, it's a great country. I love to go drink wine and look at art, but I don't think of it as having a real global—.

Wine, I forgot the wine. I'm definitely a contributor to that economy.

Yeah, right. Yeah, it's a great economy. So yeah, I get that the level of activity here in Texas would support growth, particularly with the political environment And forgetting politics for a moment, although they kind of come hand in hand with taxes, the regulatory and taxation structure that becomes unattractive in a global community that's much less about place. I can run an M&A shop and I can hire ex-Bain, McKinsey, JPMorgan investment bankers who don't want to take the train to the city anymore and will work from their home and do really high-quality work for me. And that's different than it was, I don't know, probably existed pre-pandemic, but certainly the pandemic made it much more acceptable to outsource in that way. So it used to be that it was important to physically be in New York, and I don't think that matters anymore. It doesn't. Probably will matter less going forward. So are you, is this an inside-out program where you start in Texas and you recruit Texas businesses and then you work your way out, or does that matter?

We are not bound by state lines. So for us, this is definitely on a regional exchange. We see this as, of course, companies in Texas have the biggest fan and fanfare and patriotism. So you probably will see a lot of Texas companies be first movers. But no, I, you know, Texas has a brand all in and of its own, whether it's in the US or globally. And you cannot imagine the interest we have had. Companies proactively reaching out, whether they're in Singapore or Australia or in Paris or in London, asking how can they access the Texas Stock Exchange to get into the US. They are excited by the fact that there might be a business-friendly option now for them. And not only that, but in the city, in this, in the state and in the US, I mean, it's, it's going to be an exchange of all industries, of all locations. But yes, as you can imagine, The people that are the quickest to get on board are those that, you know, are already here.

Right. So earlier we were talking about how New Jersey is the central hub for all the data centers. With North Texas being so data center heavy, does the Texas Stock Exchange keep it local or do they follow suit and go to New Jersey?

So from a quality of trading and latency perspective, we have to be in New Jersey just so that we can be competitive. If we can't trade effectively, we won't receive any listings. So we have to be in New Jersey until New Jersey says you can't be here because of the tax. But we have backup servers here in North Texas. We believe in doing business in the communities that we're in. We are also, you know, very excited to have our Texas market center here. So while we will be, you know, trading in a data center, we will actually have a physical location. We will announce that by the end of the year. So we will have, you know, the state-of-the-art facility. So a bell, We talked about this, maybe a cannon, you know, something to commemorate the open and closing of the market, the event space, the boardrooms, but then also a business museum, a Texas business museum showcasing everything from the Spindletop to the Gigafactory. I mean, so many amazing ideas and innovations have come out of this state that have changed the world. We want to highlight that and then highlight the companies that have yet to come. So for us, we will have a physical location in Texas, in Dallas, most likely, you know, kind of where that financial corridor is setting up. And we're excited to host, you know, dignitaries, host companies, host startups. We want to make it accessible. Again, going back to, you shouldn't have to know somebody in New York to do business in your home state. And so for us, I hope my kids go on a tour. Maybe they'll be impressed by me at that point. I don't know if I give the tour, maybe not.

You know, we just learned— Let them ring the bell. Yeah. Well, we just learned from a previous guest who does financial planning, financial management for legacy families. It's incredibly hard to make sure your kids, especially if you have those 5 planes and 3 helicopters, making sure they stay humble enough not to lose it all.

That's exactly— I mean, it's going to be amazing in that case. But yes, absolutely.

I think those are good problems to have.

Yeah, very good problems. I'll come back on the podcast and talk about those problems. No, but I mean, for us, we want We want people of all ages and, you know, there are so many jobs that you can have. I didn't even know there was a job at a stock exchange until I was interviewing for one. You should be able to know what's accessible to you and what type of, you know, people, what people do and how does things work. And we're excited to be able to offer that here in Dallas. And we think it'll only continue to grow and highlight the tremendous community that's been built here.

So the part of the, part of your mission is to get companies that are listed elsewhere to list list here. Presumably they would list with you to the exclusion of others. I know there are dual listings, you know, but, but part of this is a cost savings and an efficiency. And you're investing a significant amount of money to create a trading platform that'll be top-notch. The other part, I guess, will be companies coming public and coming to the Texas Stock Exchange. Do you— have you defined size and other governance issues around that?

So with our Form 1 that was approved just a few weeks back, that of course allows us to be able to move forward and start to really define our listing standards and qualifications to be either a transfer company from New York or NASDAQ, right, or an IPO. And so for us, we're looking at, you know, every single rule and regulation that's already out there. How can we make it easier Is it needed? I mean, we're really looking at this with a fine-tooth comb, but we are no matter what looking at this as you have— it is a high-quality exchange. So, you know, if you think about the market today, Lane, I mentioned there are 4,400 listed companies. Of that, about 1,700 would not qualify to list on the Texas Stock Exchange. And that's not because we're trying to be exclusionary. It's because we need to clean up the markets a bit. Part of the reason companies aren't staying public or aren't going public is there's a bit of a negative sentiment in some of the companies that are traded today. If you think about it, there are a lot of companies trading below $1 for over a year. They're doing several reverse stock splits. It's an unhealthy company in that respect. It's not healthy for the shareholder. It's not good for the management team or the business. There's several Chinese companies that are not following US financial standards and shell companies. And, you know, we think this is a chance to clean up the market a bit with those that list with us. But certainly if you think about kind of what we've put out there publicly, it's a minimum market cap of $200 million.

Okay. Coming from NASDAQ, what are you taking? What are you leaving?

Well, I think I had, I mean, I can't say anything bad other than, you know, I worked remote in 2008 and I didn't really know how to work remote, you know, before it was a thing. No, I loved it. I think NASDAQ really taught me the relationship piece of it. I mean, I was in Dallas the whole time, so there were boots on the ground, even they were just my two boots, and a couple others, of course. But for me, it is working at a high rate. There is a sense of urgency when you work at an exchange. You would think that we were curing cancer some days, which is certainly not the case. But I take that hustle with me everywhere I go. I think I came in with that hustle, but I left with a great hustle, great work ethic. So that was a tremendous opportunity to learn that. And I had great leadership. I had to— I had the chance to watch Adena become CEO, and she started as an intern at Nasdaq. So being able to see some tremendous leaders. But the good news is I have those tremendous leaders here at the Texas Stock Exchange and entrepreneurs that work here. I think what I'm leaving behind is the lack of focus on what's right for corporates. I think we, you know, we. There is a sense in most companies to cater to the people that you don't want to lose, of course, the names that you can't afford to lose. But then that leaves out the underserved and under-voiced, which is that middle market. And I think we need to create and treat all companies equally. And that is something I will leave and take with me as a change.

So speaking of that, How do you create that trust and maintain it? Because it sounds like that's what we're talking about is that lack of trust, lack of faith in the institution itself. So how do you instill it and then how do you put guardrails on at the beginning while you're creating it to make sure, hey, we don't lose this once we're up and running?

Yeah, I think for us we have to be predictable and consistent. We certainly have seen at any given year the exchanges today can change their rule set and immediately put into effect something else that you have to answer to. So for us, again, we go back to we need to have a predictable, accountable rule set. That's it. Once we set them up, other than business and things changing, whether it's digital assets or tokenization, we want to be predictable and we want to allow companies to rely on the fact that year over year, the Texas Stock Exchange is a non-issue for them when it comes to compliance. The second piece of it, of course, is doing what we're saying we're going to do. Yes, we're thrilled with the win that we got in Texas in May. That's not where we're ending. We need to continue that fight. We are, I don't know if thrilled is the right word. I don't think our general counsel would like me using that word, but part of the bills that we put through was making ISS and Glass Lewis, the proxy advisors, be accountable and transparent for their reasons for voting against management. So if they were for non-financial reasons, they needed to disclose in the state of Texas If it was for DEI or ESG, they don't like having to be transparent, I guess, and have sued the state of Texas. Well, we have joined that countersuit. You know, Texie is in it for the long run and we're willing to get our hands dirty in that, in the pursuit of making business easier. So that is something we have to continue to do and show. It's easy to say it. A lot of people say they do what's right for business and that they're pro-business, but to actually do the work and show The actual result is something we're going to have to continue.

So obviously, like Governor Abbott, Governor Perry, Senator Parker, and several other people have had a very strong hand, at least perception-wise, in this. What role does government have with an exchange in getting it implemented and started? And even as it's going, what's that role like in the future?

So for us, it's a partner in that they make, they've paved the way for us to create an exchange in the state of Texas. This is a non-government, non-politics exchange, non-ideological. We have no government money in this. This is not funded by any of that, but we have the support of them and the support of making Texas and continuing to make Texas the choice for business. So while they are incredibly supportive and we would not be here without some of their great ideas and and work, they are a completely separate entity to us. We are our own private company making decisions, you know, led by our board of directors and our management team. So we are incredibly proud and appreciative of what, you know, the governors and senators have done for us. However, we are completely separate from them.

So thinking about Texas and government, et cetera,, and thinking about the economic model that you operate under, and, you know, the taxes will be waived, the transaction fees, etc. How does this impact the state of Texas? How does it affect business people here in this community to have the Texas Stock Exchange here?

I think, you know, we've likened this to DFW Airport being implemented. It's going to change the face of North Texas. It's not only going to cement the great work that's already been done here, but it's going to allow it to grow. We're going to see more financial institutions take up residence here, more skilled talent move here. We're going to have an opportunity to really highlight the state in even more of a way. That's not because of Techseen. We are a part of what's already happening and the great people in this building and the great people in this state. But I think the Texas Stock Exchange will really underscore that Texas is not, you know, not just a cowboy-wearing state. It's a legitimate place to do business. It's a healthy place to do business. And I think we're going to see, you know, whether you like it or not, more influx of people moving here, decision makers moving here. I think at some point in the future, you won't have to get on a plane and fly to New York to make an investment decision. Those decision makers will be here in the state of Texas, and people will be flying to DFW for investor meetings and all of the like. So I think we will really continue to see the growth, but I think it'll, it'll be at a more rapid rate.

I attended a panel discussion. I don't remember who the sponsor was, but it was economic development. They had the CEO of Southwest Airlines and the CEO of Burlington Northern, and they were talking about the anticipated population growth of the DFW Metroplex, which I think is around 7.5 million now. They were talking about a 15 to 20-year time horizon. Well, that will double, and the impact that'll have on— it's going to be in Texas Stock Exchange will be part of that. It'll be really interesting to see how that growth impacts. Growth is wonderful, and it also really changes.

It does. Community. I think it's important. It's hard to grow but also maintain your roots. I think that's going to be the balance that we have to find ourselves in, which is is, you know, growing but keeping the same culture that we've created here, so to speak, keeping it affordable to live here. We can't price people out of their homes, you know, to be able to move here and not, you know, make it— we need to make it affordable. We need to keep the power, you know, we need to get water, we need to be able to make sure that all the infrastructure continues to grow at the momentum that everything else is to keep us successful.

And that political leadership's important.

Part of that. Yeah, we definitely look at what's not working in other states, which we know all too well, and why we've seen such a dynamic change here in this state. But keep that. You can't, like you said, make your Texas a California or your California— California my Texas.

There you go. So are you— obviously, you're industry agnostic because you want everybody and anybody. But are there certain sectors that you're more favorable, or at least for your own, like, hey, I want to go for this world here because that's where all the money's at? Or is it just like anybody that.

Will pick up a phone? It's everybody and anybody in that respect above a $200 million market cap. So for us, no. I mean, but if you think about who is the most receptive, it's industries that are highly regulated. An energy company, a bank, a utility, companies that have had already a lot of strangle on them. And the exchanges that they have today are already just another hand on their neck. So for us, those seem to be the most receptive to the conversation and what we're trying to do. But it's certainly looking at it from.

All walks of life. Because one of the reasons I was bringing it up is something I've learned in the last 3 months that at least wasn't obvious to me is how much Texas is just soaking up the space industry. Yes. And like how Midland, Texas, with their 3 trees, is like one of the most central hubs for space investment in general. And I mean, everybody talks about SpaceX, but what about everything else that's going on? And it's just like, that to me was just so surprising. And so you got the space industry coming to Texas. Now you get the financial industry coming to Texas. Oil has already been in Texas. So it's like, what else can we gobble up?

Yeah. I think the newspaper business. Are we going to start building more newspapers?

It's a dinosaur.

It's dying. We've got to keep bringing them in.

I'm the last newspaper reader or magazine reader.

Hewlett-Packard will be very sad to hear that.

Yes, they will. That's a tough model to work these days, isn't it? It's all digital. I actually pay to have access to newspapers online in cities where I don't live. So I am switching to— You are learning. I'm trying, but I still have the tactile feel of a newspaper.

So I take it you won't be paying for your groceries in Bitcoin with me.

Anytime soon. No. With that said, we do have the CEO of blockchain here today. And, you know, I've been sort of a Charlie Munger, you know, I think he called it rat poison. And, you know, I've just sort of—.

We have fun conversations.

Yeah, I can't wait to hear that one.

You know, I have, I have complimentary things about Bitcoin that people have said. And actually, there are people that have, like Larry Fink, have made very disparaging remarks about it who now are allocating capital to crypto.

So I mean, it's the future, right? It appears to be. And we are building our exchange for the future, for whatever that entails, whether it is tokenization or 24/5, 24/7 trading. We're ready for it. But, you know, I think it's hard. It's hard. It's new. It's something that somebody else and other people are going to have to learn and adopt at a rapid rate if that's the case. So I look forward to hearing Lane's.

Comments on all of it. Well, you know, if you're a Graham Dodd investor who's looking at cash flows, you know, then Bitcoin's just so far outside the realm because it's basically just dependent upon whoever's in this room that has a theory on the price of what it should trade for today. You know, and markets are, you know, and there's a lot of volatility around that as well. But I kind of like things that produce cash flow where I know that at the end of the day there's an asset and the asset produces cash flow. But with that said, that will make me a dinosaur in this economy. So I have to figure that out.

So, but speaking of innovation, like what doors does the Texas Stock Exchange open for innovation? Because like the obvious one to me, just listening to this conversation and already knowing that we already have so many data centers is like, how do we get the number one data center hub in North Texas or in Texas in general where it's just like light speed connection, security, always up running, all the uptimes, whatever. Like that seems like should be somebody's number one goal to get up and running. But what other innovative factors are being theorized?

I think for us, you know, we are excited to be a part of that. I think we're going to have to wait and see what all innovates around that. But if you think about all the ecosystem that touches capital markets, it's lawyers, It's auditors, it's obviously the bankers, it's the financial printers. It's— there's a ton of industries that are circling in around the capital markets, the public markets. And I think it's going to allow them to either enhance or grow or change how they do business to better accommodate for hopefully companies that go public and continue to go public at a more consistent rate. And for companies that are public to do their business in an easier way, the ethics that we and the ethos that we're bringing to the exchange. Which we believe is shared amongst a lot of businesses. And so if they can look at it that way, we hope to see.

Innovation around that as well. So somewhat self-serving, like you've got Bloomberg, CNBC, Fox Business, all these media components. Do you see new ones popping up or do you see them adopt to have a role here as well?

I think both. I think we're hopeful for both. I think there's a chance for great, you know, shows and entrepreneurs here locally to develop. I mean, we certainly hope to have, and we'll have a studio that will allow for shows to be broadcast live and taped in our facilities. But beyond that, we truly want, you know, the shows from the East Coast and West Coast to move out here and/or have an anchor here because again, business is happening here. Decisions are being made here. Innovations are growing here. So that is truly where news is happening. And, you know, I think it would be silly if they didn't.

Well, I think that's a great place for me to wrap. I'll let, I'll let Lane end with.

His, uh, well, you stacked our, uh, our podcast today with SMU grads, so I guess I'll just tie it back to SMU. I got your red on, and, um, so what's wrong with that? Yeah, um, no, I, um, I wonder, I, I think of SMU as being a progressive institute, and there's so many things, uh, the events that are held on campus to create dialogue. Um, uh, does SMU have a role in this?

Absolutely. Well, Well, the best talent comes from SMU. So I mean, that's already the case.

Well, duh.

I mean, duh. How could I? I think, first of all, it has allowed my education selfishly to appreciate at a fast, fast rate. I could not get into SMU now for sure. But I am thrilled to say I am from a local Dallas university. And absolutely, if you think about the business school that's at SMU, already a world leader, but I think it only shines a light more on what the work they're doing. Allows them to open up for more majors. I think it allows them to maybe create an incubator for startups. I think absolutely we want to not just rely on SMU, but of course UT, A&M, Baylor, TCU, and others, because those are where the next business leaders are coming from. And certainly we want to include the people in Texas that have helped build what we're doing, and SMU is a part of that.

It is, as is North Texas. We had Brent Bryant on last month, right? Mean Green, absolutely. Who's named the business school now. A lot of great universities here, but we all happen to touch and feel SMU.

Well, I mean, you know, it's the best. Can't deny that. Well, Nicole, thank you so much for being here. I look forward to seeing the growth of this. And do we— is there an estimated time or goal of when trying to launch?

So we will open for trading in mid to late Q1 of '26, and then listings of the ETPs will begin kind of that Q2-ish timeframe of 2026, and then corporate listings in, you know, end of Q3 of 2026. So we are, you know, less than 12 months-ish away or so from, you know, having you guys announce on a podcast, you know, what our listings have been.

Yeah, we may have to divert from the Pig Room on one occasion, go over to the exchange and do a podcast from the Texas Exchange. The Bull Room. The Bull Room. Yeah, exactly.

Yeah. Well, Nicole, thank you so much for being here.

Thank you for having me.