'The D.O.C.' on Death Row Records, Dr. Dre, Snoop & The Business of Hip-Hop

I always thought my voice would come back right after I had that accident. 21-year-old kid who was on top of the world. It was hard.

Tracy Lynn Curry, also known as D.O.C., is a Dallas-born rapper, songwriter, and producer who was a pioneer of West Coast hip-hop, co-writing for N.W.A., Eazy-E, and Dr. Dre, and releasing his platinum-selling debut No One Can Do It Better. Is rap still protest music?

Easy, bad guy, drug dealer, tough guy with the gunplay. These kids are still chasing that. Image. There was no evolving. Snoop is one of one. No other dog like Snoop Dogg. I was able to experience success through him.

And then you have this tragic accident. How on earth could somebody that age survive that?

The downward spiral was real for me for 35 years.

He now focuses on philanthropy, advocating for education through his Doc Cares organization, and continues to be a respected mentor in the hip-hop community.

It was rough. Go from number 1 to 0. G-O-D. Spoke to me in my front yard. You can let go of that pain. I did it for a purpose, and you're about to walk in that purpose. I have to make a record with this voice. This voice is great too. This voice is powerful.

First of all, you have such a huge career in the ups and the downs, and you're a Dallas legend. I think one of those things that You don't know until you like go to Wikipedia as a founder of Death Row Records. You know, what was that process like from the beginnings of it to being in the middle of it? I mean, being pushed out, exited out, leaving out. I'm not really sure what the relationship is there.

That whole time period of my life was very volatile, to say the least. It was right after I had that accident. And, and that was— it was hard for me, you know, for a 21-year-old kid who was on top of the world on Monday morning and lost it all Monday night. It was rough, you know, to go from number 1 to number 0. But I had the wherewithal to want to continue, you know. I never lost faith in myself. I never, I never thought that I couldn't I always thought my boys would come back, you know, um, and so I kept working so that when that day came, I would be prepared to, to retake my place at the top of the game. But, but it never came. But, uh, Suge Knight was my friend, uh, my bodyguard, kind of, when I was a young guy, and he had a lot of people that he knew And I thought that we could build something of our own, and Dre thought that was a great idea. So we all decided to work together. But like I said, I was in a bad place, and a lot of drinking— not water, you know— you know, and a lot of stuff that I had no business doing at that time just sustained me. Mentally, but I wasn't a good business partner. And I don't want to speak negatively about anybody, that's not my— that kind of guy I am. But, but some of those guys just weren't good guys and weren't the right people to be doing business with. And so, uh, like you said, I kind of got pushed to the side. And rather than fighting that on that wave, for lack of a better way of putting it, I just rode with it, just waiting on my turn to come again. I figured if, if I fought too hard, then something a lot worse than losing your money could happen.

Well, I think there's enough media coverage of the people you're talking about. I would agree with that, you know, whether it be maybe, maybe you did miss out on millions and millions and millions and billions of dollars, but at least you're still alive.

That's right, brother. And I got two sons now, uh, 8-year-old and a 10-year-old. And you can't put a price on that. They can have all of that because I got them and I got an opportunity now. But I got this back to get all of that stuff. And all those, uh, the material stuff doesn't matter as much as Family does. And doing it in LA, kind of for LA, doesn't feel as good as being home and in a position to do it now for, for Dallas. And that's where the whole idea of my school kind of came from, creating opportunities for those kids that come from the spaces that I come from in this city to get access that, that most of us don't get, you know. Um, the truancy rate since COVID in the superblock where I came from is almost 50%.

Wow.

That means the kids just— they've given up. Yeah, there's no hope. They don't want to go to school. And one of my reasons, my reasoning is that the kids that are in sports— basketball, football— um, that they're going to school. They're sitting in front of the class, they're getting 3.0 GPAs because they see their future in that ball. You know, the kids that don't run so fast and jump so high, the kids that, that want to do what, what that guy's doing, they think they could just go do it on the street corner. And, and for some of them that may be true, but, but there's also a lot of death and destruction out there that if you're not careful You're going to catch a lot more of that than opportunity.

I think that's one of the coolest things about your program is it's tied to the truancy, it's tied to attendance. So in his program, and I'm not going to, I'll let you speak about it, but they want all these kids to be involved in the entertainment, the singing, the arts, the acting, et cetera. But admission, the price of admission is attendance to class. And if you don't have attendance to class, you can't pay the price to admission.

Is that right?

Is that about some of that?

That's exactly right. From my perspective, and I'm just giving kids what I didn't get, what I didn't have, what made me run to California to try to make it is that these opportunities I'm trying to give these kids didn't exist. I had to chase it. And thank God I caught it, you know. And but now I want to give that back. And so in order to receive these opportunities, you got to have your butt in school, you know, and doing well in school. And then I will give you every piece of opportunity that I can get my hands on. I will go and stomp the yard in places like this to find opportunity for you to make commerce. And to show you, show this world who you really are. Because these kids, they only want what we want. They want some money, and they want to be seen, and they want to be heard, you know. They don't know the power that they have inside them. They, they get, um, sidetracked by watching television and thinking television is real life, you know. But it's not, you know. There's There's such thing as responsibility and honor and courage that, that you don't get from television. You get sex and violence and drugs, and, and for those kids, that's cool. But I've come on to, to put a new spin on cool. This is cool. What we're doing is pretty damn cool. Yeah. And I want them to want to do this rather than, than those other things.

Doing what you enjoy is a powerful motivator. I certainly am not going to relate my experience to the experience of some of the kids you're dealing with, but when I was in high school, I loved the game of basketball. It's just, it consumed me, and I had to make a certain grade point average to stay on the basketball team. And although I was scared to death of taking a bad report card home to my father, I was much more worried about not being able to play basketball. So sports kept me engaged in the classroom. And it's the same basic principle. If you want this, you got to do that.

You know, it's similar. And this is an absurd tie-in, but like, I knew I wanted to go to the Marines since I was like 12 years old.

Wow.

And, you know, part of going to the Marines is they scare the hell out of you. Don't be drinking, don't be doing drugs. So I never did drugs. And I'm not saying I would ever do drugs to begin with, but But the main deterrent was I didn't want to pop a test and miss out on the dream of becoming a Marine. So having those guide rails, I think, is important. And I think what you're alluding to or Cheryl just saying is there's a large population of people that don't have any guardrails because they don't have— maybe they don't have the proper goals or they don't have the proper instruction or carrot. All they have is sticks. They don't have carrots.

That's right. My uncle is a Marine. He was. And, uh, my parents wanted me to go follow in his footsteps. Not as brave as you. I didn't want to go to the Marines. I wanted to go to Hollywood. Yeah, which I did. Um, but I met a serviceman And he thought so much of me and what I'm doing is he made me an honorary Marine. He gave me this coin. I had to shake a hand a certain way. And so now I take that, you know, I take that very seriously, that being a man of integrity and honor, um, uh, is really important to show these young kids what it's all about. In fact, There are kids going to the service this year from the high school right around the corner in Rowlett where I'm from. And there's a bunch of them that do my lawn every week so that I could feed them, you know, a little tools and fuse so they can have money when they go to basic training, you know. So I'm doing my part, trying to help these kids. Stay motivated to do the right thing and, you know, have God and country and family at the forefront of their lives and keep doing the right thing. You'll excuse me, but I love these candies. Holy moly.

So what the Marine gave you was called a challenge coin. And if you want free drinks, just always carry that with you. And then like if you get in the bar and you find out somebody's Marine, Clop it out, put it on the table, and if they don't have a coin, they gotta buy you a drink.

Well, when I used to drink, that.

Would have come in handy. So in reading your story, and you've answered part of it for me, but I'm thinking, you know, you're 20-something years old, you're on top of the world, you've got a record that's, you know, at the top of the charts, and then you have this tragic accident. And I'm thinking, well, how on earth could somebody that age survive that and not go into this downward spiral? It would be so easy for you to have taken a very different path. And you said, I thought my voice was going to come back. And so I'm thinking that that kind of kept you engaged. At what point did you realize my voice isn't coming back? And I presume you had reconciled to that at some point when you, when you came to that reality?

The downward spiral was real for me.

Okay.

For 35 years.

35 years you felt like you were still dealing with the aftereffects of that accident?

Absolutely.

Even though you had a great deal of success in the industry?

Well, I had success through friends.

Yeah.

I worked for them. It felt like it wasn't my success.

Okay.

It was success by proxy, I guess you could say. And they kept going up, but I kept going down. I never got the money, and I didn't know how to handle money. You know, I was just in a really bad space. Yeah. And, uh, depression, and, you know, drugs and alcohol were really the only things that kept me. Uh, my family is here in Dallas.

Yeah.

And I was alone out there on California just trying to hang on, you know. But like I said, I'm a spiritual person. All of this has been a path that I had to walk in order to be this person that I am today. And it was 2020 actually, and it was so weird leading up to 2020. 2016, it's all You know, everything's beginning to go all over the place, but I realized that in 2020, I said it, I said this to myself, that we're going to be able to see, just because it made sense, 2020 being a perfect vision, we're going to be able to see something in this country in 2020 that allows us to know exactly where everything is going. I said that up until 2020, and then bam, yeah, COVID hits in 2020. But right before COVID hit, a guy that I grew up with that I call my younger brother, he had been arrested and went to prison for drugs and stuff like that. He called me. He had been chasing me all through the latter part of 2019, saying, man, I had a vision. God got something for you. And it's more than you could ever imagine. Um, but you got to read this book. He was talking about the Bible. Yeah. And I ran from that dude for a couple months.

Sure.

But that's my brother and I love him, and he was so insistent. And I sat down with him and started reading the Bible. He opened it up for me in ways that it's really difficult to explain, you know. And in March of 2020, right before the explosion, I had what I could only call a visitation where God spoke to me in my front yard. And he said, you can let go of that pain, um, that you didn't do that, that I did it, and I did it for a purpose, and you're about to walk in that purpose. And, uh, they had been chasing me for a couple years about doing a documentary. I kept saying no because I was waiting on a happy ending to happen. Who wants to hear a story about a guy that screwed up his whole life? But after that moment, I thought it's time, and I started making calls. I didn't have any money, so I started making calls to someone, people that I thought would would support it. The first guy I called was a friend of mine from Chicago. I said, I think I'm ready to do a documentary. He said, what do you think it'll cost? I said, I don't know, maybe, maybe $800,000, $900,000. He said, let's do it. Well, first guy. Yeah, call a director. This is at the beginning of COVID Yeah, nobody's supposed to want to do anything right now. It's locked down and people are afraid. But every single person that I called and said, I'm ready, they said, let's go. Yeah. So I got the film done for a lot cheaper because nobody was working. Right. And it took 2 years of chronologically going through my story here in Dallas and putting a light on this city in a way that hadn't been up to that point. And it was at the end of that film Shooting in West Dallas in the projects where I was born, talking to a bunch of kids, that gave me the feeling that I wanted to get back in that way. So the school, I hadn't even thought about a school up until that point, but doing that scene made me think I wanted to get back to these kids. And maybe a year later, Chris and I met. I sold him my vision. Actually, I sold it, uh, to the Dallas Regional Chamber first, and they introduced me to Chris. They said, this is Doc, he has an amazing story, he has an amazing vision, we think you guys would be great together. Uh, they introduced Chris and I almost 2 years ago, and we started building. And, and then it's happened so fast, it's so quick. We raised almost $1 million, um, in the first 2 or 3 months of unveiling what we wanted to do. I got a call from Yale University saying, we love what you're doing, we'd like you to speak. I went and spoke. The dean of the Tisch School of Business was in the audience. She said, I'm amazed at what you're doing, would you come to NYU and speak? And then they— and then Howard University heard, and they said, wow, we love what you're doing, would you come here? And so I could only think that it's a God thing. Like, I'm not doing any of this. I'm just walking a path that was meant for me. And I'm just trying to do the next right thing and be the best man I can be on this path.

And shape a lot of lives. Tell me about the school. What's the mission of the school? How will it function?

Well, uh, there are 4 verticals. Um, gaming, music, what's called the creator economy, and software development. Both Chris and I feel like this, these are the jobs of tomorrow, and it's actually where the kids live today. So I get to go meet them where they are. I get to take them to Dude Perfect and, and, or, or some of the facilities out in Frisco. That are doing the work that's involved in the creator economy. There are kids in Frisco that are making millions of dollars playing video games and marketing their audiences to these brands. The kids that come from where I'm coming at have no clue about any of that, you know? And so I'm introducing them to a new way of thinking. And like I said, the verticals are on gaming, game design, game development, graphic design, music, TV and film, the creator economy, those kind of brand sort of associated missions, and software development. Those are the jobs of tomorrow. We believe that Dallas is going to be ground zero for this new sort of AI revolution, and we want to make sure that our kids are already. Speaking of AI, and this is a caveat to the whole story, I spent 35 years hoping and praying something would happen that I could get my voice back. I'd had surgery or this or that, and I don't want to give away the movie because I'd like for you to see it. I think you'd really enjoy it, even if NWA ain't your style. I think you'd enjoy the story. After the film, it leaves you sort of on a cliff wondering what that person is going to do. And maybe 6 months after the film, I got approached by a company that was brand new to AI. And it seems that AI is now at a place where I could reconstitute my old voice using those old stems and bring that artist back to life through AI. And so there's an additive to the story. The kid actually does get his voice back. Yeah, it's just not the way he thought.

Yeah.

And so I started actually working with Howard University, and there, uh, they have a new department called AI and Black Music, and they thought my story was fantastic and wanted to work with me to build that project. So not only do I get to work with the kids in southern Dallas to make that happen. But I get to partner them with kids at Howard and NYU and Yale. And so it's a huge deal. And I feel really grateful to have walked this path, to be the guy that's getting the chance to do it.

That's really neat.

I think one of the— real quick, just because like his documentary— one of the coolest experiences of my life was I was grateful enough or gracious enough for, you know, Doc came by the office and he showed Paul and I his documentary. I got to tell you, watching a documentary about a guy like Doc where he's sitting right next to you is a great experience. And because again, it's like, you know, movies I think are a communal or should be a communal experience. But when the subject matter is sitting right next to you and he's looking at you to see how you're reacting.

Yeah.

Because he knows that like, Yeah, he's cool and all, but I'm not necessarily the biggest hip-hop, N.W.A. fan. But if— and I think if I remember correctly, you were saying if I can make you be a fan of the film, that means we have a good film.

That's right.

And there were moments in there that I think— I don't know if I was crying, but I was almost— I was close.

Oh, yeah.

You know, like, for a Marine, you were close.

Well, I mean, you'll have to watch it. But like, when Erica is like, you know, I can hear you fine.

I was like, see, now just because you remember that line says everything, bro.

Yeah, well, I told you, it's like when there's a segment where Dr. Dre's in there and then I was like, I just leaned over. So that's a good friend, you know, I remember we told him that.

But so is the documentary out?

No, it's not out yet.

Okay. Because I feel like some of this may be in the public domain. I have a son-in-law who's probably 30, late 30s, and I told him that you were going to be one of our podcast guests today. He knew who you were. He was familiar with your music. And he said, he said, I have a question for you to ask him, which I've immediately forgotten, right? He sent it to me on my cell phone while I was on an airplane. But it fundamentally revolved around your having the ability to sing, which I thought he invoked AI as part of that. So maybe there's just speculation or maybe the words on the street. I don't know.

Am I going to use AI to get my voice back? They've been chasing me down. For that for 2 years. And I said no for a myriad of reasons, but now I'm ready. Everything in God's time. And the fact that I get to experience it with these babies.

Your children?

No, I mean the kids in South Dallas.

Okay.

All right.

Be pretty cool for your children as well.

Well, my boys, my boy's a basketball player like you.

Okay.

So he just— I feel a lot better. Just give him a ball and he's happy.

Oh man, I was too in the day.

Another cool thing about Doc though is like if you ever get a chance just to walk with him.

You told me he got crowded at SMU.

Well, literally I went to go get him upstairs and we're walking by and one of the persons upstairs was just like, oh my God, you're here.

Yeah.

And it's like everywhere I've gone with him, at least one person stops, and then there's also at least one person going, what? Yeah, who's that? Yeah, so it's a great experience. I love hanging out with you.

To the extent your last recorded music was 1991, that's a rather profound statement that you are still known and revered. In my research on you, it says you had a really silky, unique voice, and that you were a great lyricist. And I'm wondering, because when I think about rap and hip hop, I was one of the owners of the B.B. King's Blues Club with B.B. King. And, you know, blues came out of the Mississippi Delta. I grew up in Memphis. And it was, you know, it was music from a group that felt oppressed and they were expressing themselves through music. I think of reggae and hip-hop as being expressive music around a protest about, you know, social, political. Were you as a young rapper, hip-hop artist, were you expressing yourself through that music? Was it about the protest? Was it about the music, or was it— can you separate the two?

For those guys in LA, it was more about the protests.

Yeah.

But I was just a fan of art. I'm just an artist. Yeah. You know, I'm not a thug guy. I've never been a— not a fighter. I'm a lover of people.

I like that side of the equation better myself.

I don't like trouble. I don't like being in trouble. I don't like getting in trouble.

So you love the music and you were a lyricist, but you weren't there because you were angry. You were there to— but, um, and maybe one of the, no pun intended, raps against that musical genre, um, you know, is that there was— it sort of promoted violence, um, and which we talked about earlier. There are a lot of people that you knew in the industry that are no longer here. Is it the same today? Is rap still protest music? Is it still— or has it evolved over time?

That's a very interesting question. Unlike my contemporaries, I feel some responsibility for where it's gone, even if in those early days we were protesting and there was reason behind it. Absolutely. Devolved. Into something with no— nothing positive to give from it, you know. And it's just not good for where these kids are. It's— in fact, one of the guys that I started working with in California was a rapper named Eazy-E. He was the prototype for inner-city bad guy, you know, drug dealer and tough guy with the gunplay and yada yada yada. And so when the music made him a hero, and a lot of these kids begin to emulate that process, even today these kids are still chasing that image. So there was no evolving of the music once it got to that point. And there's probably a zillion reasons why, but I'm here today. The fact I got a new record, I feel good. Yeah, well, number one is because I'm gonna make this AI record, right? But, but I feel like I have to make a record with this voice before that to say to people that this voice is great too, okay? That this voice is powerful, that this voice is beautiful. In the Bible, it says, uh, God sounds like rushing waters, you know? And so maybe I got a little God voice going on here, and I should use it. And people laugh when I tell you— tell them this, but The record sounds like if N.W.A. made a gospel record. And so it's very interesting.

Yeah.

So you said you had responsibility. Where does that responsibility come from?

My belief, my faith, you know, and my children and wanting better for them, for their world.

Because you were talking about like Eazy-E and the beginnings of N.W.A. and and how rap has kind of turned into maybe the wrong imagery? Is it because maybe like, hey, I helped build that legacy and I'm trying to maybe bring it back to more of a positive light?

I helped to create the path to go this way. It's incumbent upon me to create a path to take it back and go this way, to stop them and say, this is the wrong way. We need to be going this way. You know, if, if we're going to evolve this art, if we're going to evolve ourselves, uh, into a better version of what we are today, we need to go this way. You can't go to Japan speaking English and expect to get your message across to people. I have to meet these kids where they are. They have to get— they have to hear themselves in the message, even if the message is It's pretty, you know. I tell the young guys on the street, there's a kid in the Bible, his name was Samson. He was born and raised, and he didn't go out and do a lot of preaching. He didn't tell people to follow the word. He just whooped a lot of butt, you know, and chased a lot of girls. So there's not a lot of difference between you and he. The difference between you and he is he know He knew whose he was, not who he was. And so when that moment came that he had to find himself, he knew who to talk to. So I need to help these guys understand they got somebody that they can talk to that probably know a lot more than the guy standing next to them that's gonna hand them a weapon and tell them, yeah, this is great, you know, let's go do this. Not so much unless you want to end up in the cemetery or down south further than we are now.

You've seen a lot since 1991 when you've recorded your first album. You were part of the songwriting and production, I guess, of Snoop Dogg's record. And so here's my really stupid question of the day is I'm watching the Olympics and Snoop Dogg is hanging out with Martha Stewart. Yeah. So what part of you could project that Snoop Dogg Snoop Dogg as a rap artist in the 1990s would be a mainstream guy making millions of dollars. I'm not sure what space he occupies.

I mean, you could say the same thing about Ice Cube doing family-friendly movies. Yeah, it's the same concept.

First of all, Snoop is one of one. There's no other dog like Snoop Dogg.

He's it, huh?

Yeah.

Is he still producing music?

Yeah.

Okay.

And he's a great human being. He's a family guy now. What would I have ever thought that the marijuana king of 1991 would be holding the torch in Paris? Yeah, no, uh, but he's a great ambassador. Yeah, he's a great friend. Yeah, and, uh, he and Martha make a great team.

He seems like a guy that would be a lot of fun to hang out with.

Yeah, um, and as long as you're not smoking.

As long as you're not smoking.

As long as you're not smoking.

Okay.

I can't imagine. A, I don't smoke, but B, if I did, how are you going to keep up with somebody like that?

I'm going to solve that problem for you right now.

You can't outsmoke Snoop.

No.

Okay.

In fact, if you're in the room with him, you're probably in danger of coming out with a severe contact just by being in the vicinity.

Which makes it even more bizarre, I guess, that he and Martha are a pair on But, you know, he likes to cook.

He likes to smoke.

Yeah.

Well, you know, he either has a really good agent and/or he's a really smart businessman who has figured out how to monetize the personality of Snoop Dogg because he's making millions and millions of dollars off of sort of his personality, which kudos to him.

But he's done a lot of great work. A lot of really amazing young football players in our NFL game today went through Snoop's coaching program. He works really hard on the kids.

And when you say coaching, what is he coaching?

Football.

Okay. Now he has a nephew or a— he has a family member who I think plays in the NFL, if I'm not mistaken. Mistaken.

Well, he had a son, uh, that, that was going to the league.

Um.

But I'm not sure about that.

Okay, I could have— well, he's the one who played. It was, you know, but if Warren.

G, who is his brother— yeah, is the one we're talking about— Warren G's son plays for Buffalo.

That's probably what I'm getting. So Snoop Dogg coaches, or coached, youth football. I have no idea. He's a Renaissance man.

Oh yeah.

Um, I had no idea.

He wanted to be a football player, but he's too skinny.

Could you, could you see this capacity for him to, to be what he is today when you were working with him on his record back in the day? Probably hard for him to present that way at that age.

Yeah, because he had, he had no clue, but he always had this vibrant sort of being. He's a good kid. He's funny. He's entertaining. But I couldn't see— he wouldn't— if he were doing an interview with you, he'd look down. You know, he wasn't comfortable in front of the camera. Right. He's host of that party. Yeah.

Yeah.

And I'm super proud of him.

Yeah.

I was able to experience success through him in a time where I really needed it.

Yeah. And you talk about there were some bad actors in the space, and it sounds like he was one of the good actors in the space that you were fortunate to work with. Maybe set some boundaries, intentionally or not, for you.

Well, they may have tried, but I was on the guardrail. Back in those days, it was hard to keep me.

So you had this change of heart, of soul, in the last 5 years. So you had a period from the wreck, which was— when was that, '91?

'89.

'89. So from then until 5 years ago, you really struggled.

I struggled a lot.

Yeah, you're leading a new life.

Yeah, absolutely. Remembering. Yeah, re-slash-membering. Yeah, I'm finding who I am again. Yeah, and loving, creating art. Because I get to do it for me. Yeah, there's purpose behind it. I've always been a man of purpose. Yeah. And so there's a reason why I'm doing it, and people are attracted to purpose. Yeah. People see that I'm not doing this just because I think I'm, you know, one of the greatest of all time, for which I may be.

Yeah. Hey, look, you know, I set that.

Down when I was playing Platinum Records.

Hey, uh, you know, uh, tell them, man.

Let them know.

Yeah, see what I'm seeing.

How many, how many other folks here have a platinum record?

I mean, you know, yeah, I am curious about a thing, and, and, and I want to make sure I ask it, you know, carefully. You know, rec aside, so let's take your voice backs out of the equation altogether. You have— and, and I know I've heard you say before your friend's money is their money, has nothing to do with you. But you have helped on so many artists, great art, like literally icons throughout the ages— ages— or throughout the years. What are some lessons that you learned in that process where maybe you didn't get your cut, you didn't get your, your piece, you were left out of the contract, you were left out of the, and, and maybe you did contribute more than what people said you did or whatnot. Like, how do you navigate that? And what are the lessons that maybe you could pass down to somebody else that maybe they don't go through that same kind of, uh, uh, minefield?

Well, show business is two words, show and business. And if you let either one of those slip, you're going to to suffer. Uh, I put too much emphasis on the show as a kid and not enough emphasis on the business. But when you're, you know, 17, 18, 19, you don't know. But once you know, then, then it becomes your responsibility to take care of your business, you know. And I want to teach my kids that. I want to finance to be a part of the curriculum. I want, I want to make— I want it— one of the things that I, that I talk to these kids about doing, you're creators. Let's say you make a candy. We're gonna make a candy. You name it, you cook it, you write a song about it. I'm going to go out and find 5,000 people that believe in change that really believe in doing something for these kids. I'm gonna mow their yard, sign records, I'll go to their bar mitzvah, it doesn't matter, whatever they want me to do for a $200 donation to this venture. $200 times 5,000 people is a million bucks. That's how easy it is. Show them. Now I'm gonna take a quarter of this million and you guys take it and split it. But you're going to go through this class to learn how to do it, how to build with it, how not to destroy it. We're going to take another $250, and in your name, go to a, a small bank, get it to match what you've given, and create a small business in your neighborhood with somebody from your neighborhood. That's really trying to do something. Gonna put another $250,000 in each one of your home schools split between the three. Whether you go to Skyline or SOC or Kimball or whatever your art school is, you're gonna put some of this money back into your school and then another $250,000 back into this curriculum. You do that 4 times a year and the kids are going, hey, how do I get to that school now? And the schools are going, hey, you want some of our kids? And the neighborhood is going, hey man, thanks for helping us, you know. And just by trying, by putting the effort down, the whole community begins to coalesce around the idea by doing it the right way, not the wrong way. Now you got enough commerce being created that you can go to these guys that did do it the wrong way and get them to come help you. Straighten out the ones that are out there doing it the wrong way. Now, now you got a real— now you got, you got something that you can really put your teeth into trying to grow, you know, and just do it one neighborhood at a time.

So what's the wrong way?

Selling drugs, you know, robbing and stealing and killing each other, you know. That's the wrong way. You're not going to get anything out of that. Even if you think it's going to get you acclaim, you think it's going to get you some kind of power, it's just going to get you the graveyard or the penitentiary. And I don't want that for anybody.

Going back to the music side of things though, like you said that you were too busy on the show and not on the business. You've had 35, 40 years to reflect. What would you change?

I wouldn't change any of it.

I mean, on the business side, I.

Wouldn'T change a single thing that has happened in the, in the 40 years that I've had to walk this path, because it made me this man today. And I like this guy, you know. It took him a while to get here, but damn it, he's here, and he's pretty damn cool. He's still decent.

Looking, we'll give you that.

Yeah. You know, I still got my backbone.

I still got— I'm surprised he didn't wink to the camera, you know.

I still got heart and soul. I got a wife and some kids, you know. And those things mean more to me than being the greatest rapper of all time. And it's cool. And I love it when people stop and, hey, Doc, and you know what, I love that. But it's much more important that my, my kids see their dad and, and know that he's a good guy.

This transformation you went through 5 years ago, you said one of your sons is 10. Is he seen? Has he— is he aware? Uh, do your kids understand what you went through and how you've come out the other side?

No, they don't know yet. In fact, both my sons are— or, and my daughter are in the movie. Oh, I don't even remember it.

Yeah, I know.

Okay. But they were in the movie as kids, and I was making breakfast for them. And it's, it's really a heartwarming movie. Yeah, it's more about— it's more a story of perseverance and faith than it is a rapper being a rapper. It's all about holding on, no matter if you're a 50-year-old white guy that just lost his family and getting a divorce and this job, or whatever your circumstance might be, that if you could just hold on, those beautiful days are coming.

We talked earlier, fairly morbid, but the suicide rate among men of that age, there's a fundamental underlying issue there that's driving depression and anxiety among men my age. I won't say our age. Maybe I could recruit Andy into.

That.

What a tremendous journey you've had. And I'm so impressed to meet you and learn about this. And, you know, just reading your story and thinking about this tragic turning point, I just kept turning in my mind, how did a young man deal with that? And the answer was that you suffered and you suffered for a long time. Even though when I look at, you know, what you were doing during that time, you were productive. You said you were supporting other people's success, but you're known as being a great lyricist. You made a significant, meaningful contribution that didn't appear to reward you financially, but you made a significant contribution to the art form. What do you listen to today? Do you listen to the same genre that you were part of, or what's on your— I don't know what we call them anymore, right?

Spotify, Taylor Swift drop.

That's it. Yeah, that's it.

I don't think so. I'm waiting on Taylor.

I don't think so.

I don't listen. I really don't listen to much of anything. Nothing is inspiring. Okay. But I'm hopeful that those things will change because we're overdue.

When you say not inspiring, you mean from a musical standpoint? From a messaging standpoint? Both.

Okay. When rap came, it was new and it was exciting, right? You know, and then this thing called— they call neo-soul— that came, and it was new and it was exciting. Yeah. And, uh, there's a, there's a singer from Dallas, her name is Erykah Badu. Yeah. Um, she, she gave me a baby girl, and that daughter was actually the beginning of me finding myself.

So that was your first child?

That's, that's actually my second child. I had a, a child the year that I had that accident. Oh wow, I had a child. Yeah. And me and that child, we came back home, um, so that my mother could help. And then I went back to this, to the street. Yeah. But then I came, you know, after all the full circle stuff, I came back home in, in 2000, and Erica and I who had, uh, known each other as kids. Yeah, sort of reconnected. And, uh, girl from South Dallas, boy from West Dallas. Yeah, boy meets girl. Yeah. And, uh, we had this beautiful little baby girl, and that little girl loved me so hard. Yeah, that it forced me to start loving myself.

Interesting.

That's beautiful. And, uh, that's in the film. Yeah, um, and like I said, it's, it's a great testament to who and what we are here in Dallas. I'm very proud of that film because it shows us in, in our real life.

Yeah, and this is the documentary that has not been released yet. So when will I be able to watch it?

Um, I'm prayerful that this film will be out next year. Okay. Hollywood, we were talking about business and worth and knowing your worth. Hollywood has a, well, a strange way of devaluing great art. Yeah. I'm under the impression today that you've taken enough from me. You can't have any more. And so I'm going to hold it until you see what I see. Yeah. And there are people sniffing around the door finally saying the right things. And so I'm hopeful it'll be next year. Right around the time this record begins to come out, I can start promoting the film. And now that I'm doing an AI album, it can be a part of, yeah, the next chapter.

So I think last time we talked about this though, you said, I'll be damned, I'll sell it $20, come see it, sit on my couch.

That's right. And I meant that. I would rather let people in my front door one by one for $20 apiece to watch this movie, right, before I give it to you. Sure. Because you've taken enough.

Yeah.

How are you going to take such a beautiful story about a man who's been screwed over his whole life, right? Try to screw it with it. Yeah, that makes no sense, and it's just dark and evil. Yeah, and I'm not gonna let you do it.

Yeah, well, good for you. Thank you. I will say that just as a business person, the movie industry, the streaming industry, the music industry, um, all of it has changed. Yeah, you know, you, you could buy the largest movie chain in the world for a couple hundred million dollars. Now, that sounds like a lot of money, but in reality, it's a very small industry now. And apparently it doesn't make any sense to release to the movie theaters. They just go straight to streaming. And now you've got content being developed by Netflix and the other groups. So in a way, that's kind of cool because I can sit on my couch and have the world, you know, and so many choices. But I like the movie.

I do too.

I sense, and I don't know the music industry that well, but I sense that the days of going in and recording an album in the studio and releasing it the way it's traditionally been released and touring to support it. Forget Taylor Swift for a moment. You know, used to be they made money touring. Now apparently they don't make money touring. I don't know.

But it's, it's above my pay grade at the moment.

Yeah, I— but is music released the way it was when you were— No, no, no.

It's— and it's the whole industry. As a whole is sort of on its head. Yeah. Now it's being broken up and it's spreading out.

Is that good or bad?

I think it's great. Okay. I think it's going to be great for us here in Texas. It allows us to make some of that green, right? It allows us to do things here at home.

So instead of a couple of powerful record labels now— okay, that's right.

Okay, the, the what The one thing that social media does is connects you directly to your audience. Yeah. So you don't need one of the big three in order to touch 100,000 people. Yeah. And if you can make a million bucks with just 5,000 people, how much could you make with 100,000? Yeah, right. You have to sell 10 zillion, right, to make a whole lot of money, right? You sell 100,000 records to a core group of people, you're gonna pretty be a pretty happy camper. Absolutely. So I'm, I'm a, I'm a Texas boy, and now I'm about this Texas business. Yeah. There's a guy named Taylor Sheridan. Yeah, sure. Who's a really big wheel. Yeah. In Hollywood these days. Yeah. And, uh, he's doing this thing over there in Fort Worth area. And so we already got a leader to follow, you know. I'm on his heels trying to get him to understand If you, if you can, if you'll allow me in your circle, you can count on me. Yeah. To help you develop, you know, content that serves other audiences in this market. Yeah. At a high level. In fact, I went to Manchester, England, just came back from Manchester, and this is one of those GOD things. Yeah. I went to Manchester because there's a small football club there called Radcliffe. Yeah, that said, man, we'd love for you to come over and look at us, you know, uh, after what Ryan Reynolds did with Wrexham. Even Longoria has a team over there. Oh my goodness, Snoop has a team over there. Wow, uh, who would have thunk it? TJ White has a team over there. Yeah, and so small— one of the smaller clubs actually, uh, at the same level Wrexham was when Reynolds got a hold of him. And so I went over there and went to a couple of the games and met all the people, wonderful people over there. Um, and so now I'm a minority owner of a football club in Manchester, England. Wow. I mean, yeah. And so I see the opportunity to build a bridge, yeah, between Old England and DFW. In a way where we can culturally exchange and grow and benefit and do amazing things together. In fact, the World Cup is here next year. Those guys are going to come here next year. I'm going to try to write a really interesting story and incorporate sort of our own Wrexham around that time period and give Dallas-Fort Worth some of that love that they giving away on Netflix. 'cause we deserve it. Yeah. And yeah, and so TV and film and music offers commerce and opportunity, not just for my kids, but for all of us.

So I'll just say, spoiler alert, Dan Hunt's coming here in a couple months. Oh, that's right.

Yeah.

From FC Dallas.

Yeah. Can we do something? Can we put a plug in for you there?

Oh yeah. Now somebody from— I'll let you know when recording.

You just hang out.

Yeah. That sounds like a good idea. Oh my God, you could see it now.

Ratcliffe.

And FC Dallas in an exhibition game, and one of the guys, one of the girls falls for the English guy. Just good TV, bro. And then you do the soundtrack. That's exactly right. Me and my kids, and not just my kids. Uh, because when you, when you build a facility like, like the Dreams Experience Academy, that allows me the opportunity to get the best in the market in equipment and facility that doesn't exist here right now. There's not one decent A-room in the city of Dallas-Fort Worth. Wow. Not one decent what now? A-room. It's, uh, the studio where— okay, yeah, where the where Dr. Dre would come and pour in.

Chris Bennett was talking about that.

Yeah. We've had private conversations where you said you begged, or not begged, but you've been trying to get Dre to Dallas, but Dre works in a studio where one speaker is $1 million.

That's right.

So getting him to come to Dallas to do anything is going to be a minute.

We won 11 Grammys last year in Dallas for our work, but the work went out. These are producers and artists that had to go places to do that. Why are we letting all of our stuff go? You know, those— that's commerce that could be back here. Those awards should be made here, you know. And so I'm busting my butt trying to make that facility happen so that the kids in the southern sector and the kids on the northern sector, they're music buffs that are into punk or rock have somewhere where they can go, and we can make this thing a melting pot and make great music together.

How long were you in California?

I left in 1987 and I came back in 2000.

Okay, I was thinking you were there for longer, and I was wondering the attachment. You clearly have a tremendous attachment to Texas.

Oh yeah, and Dallas Cowboys fan for life. Still. What? I mean, I can't help it that we're having problems in the front office, but yeah, I bleed that blue.

So I grew up a New Orleans Saints fan. I know. Well, look, you know, yeah. So understand, though, that they had the longest non-winning streak in the history of the NFL. But I love them because Archie Manning, who played for Ole Miss, where my parents went to college and met, played for the Saints and they lost and lost and lost and lost and lost. And then they got Drew Brees with.

A pretty good quarterback though. Yeah, he was a great quarterback.

He was a great quarterback. And now he's the, you know, this legacy he has with his children, grandchildren. Now Texas is number one in the country.

Got to say, the family was pretty smart to make that move.

Yeah. And but I am a, I am a Cowboy fan. What I've realized, I'm a transplant. I moved here in 5 years ago. And what I've realized, what I perceive— you can correct me if I'm wrong— is there are a lot of diehard Cowboy fans who don't like Jerry Jones. They, they love the team. They don't like the ownership. And there seems to be this incredible disconnect between that, between the love of the team and the disconnect with the family. You don't have to say anything about it. No, it's— and I'm an outsider, right? I'm a Tennessean making that observation.

Yeah, but I'll chime in. But not on that.

I'll say, because I love Jerry.

I know.

Yeah. Let me let that be known for the record.

Well, this is Tennessee kids, the one.

You know, the QR code to donate to the dog care. No, what I was going to say, though, is with, with Jerry Jones is like, regardless of the performance, his business.

Acumen, his marketing, valuable team in the world.

Which makes no sense considering it's been a, you know, a losing franchise for 30 years. And I know they've had some winning seasons here and there, but let's be honest, if it's not a Super Bowl for the Cowboys, it's not— it's a losing season. That's right.

So we are America's team. We're supposed to win every year. And Dr. Dre gives me the business every year. Matter of fact, he started texting me yesterday. All those spoofs about the Cowboys, and he loves it, you know, and he thinks we're not going to win.

And who's his team?

He's a Rams guy.

Okay.

All right. I want to ask you, like, when the world looks at a Dr. Dre, an Ice Cube, um, a Snoop Dogg, an Eminem, and they see, you know, these legends of hip-hop, and, and I understand, and I also would put you up there as well But obviously they've had a different path. You have a different relationship with all of.

Them.

Um, what do you think when you see people idolize them? Does that make you happy? Does that make you jealous? Does that make you, oh, that's pretty cool? Or are you indifferent? Like, what feelings do you have?

That makes me very happy. I put a lot of energy and effort into that, you know, and so the fact that it works just lets me know that I'm right, you know, and I don't have jealousy. It's not a part of my makeup. I'm happy when everybody wins. You don't have to worry about me. God got me. And when I get mine, they gonna know that part too, you know. And so my friends are still my friends. My contemporaries may have the world and I may not have anything, but that doesn't make me less happy. In fact, it might make me happier than they are. You know, there's a lot of responsibility comes with, uh, success. And so me being able to start now, uh, will allow me to, to, to not build a prison for myself in success, but to open this. In fact, the spirit told me I'm gonna have my chance at a billion There you go. But the billion ain't for me, it's for them. Yeah, but I'm gonna be able to pick mine up out of there, and I don't need a zillion dollars, you know. It's not what's the stock, that's not what makes me happy. My family makes me happy. Being able to— I want to buy my mom a house, you know. Um, I want to do things for my father. My parents are still here and they're, they're at the point And thank God all these wonderful things are happening right now. Uh, my mother still works. She's at that point where she doesn't want to stop moving because she thinks if she stops— so I'm gonna pay you. What's my job? Your job is grandmother. That means you take these little suckers wherever they want to go, right? And you cook them all the things, and you do this, and you And I want that so bad for my life. And I think it's right around the corner.

Yeah.

I spent 30 years managing money for very wealthy people, and I can certainly say that money does not buy happiness, but it is a tool that can be used in a way that can create profound satisfaction. And you see it as a tool to accomplish things, right? Which is the right mindset. But I can certainly say from experience that it is not in and of itself. Plenty of unhappy people.

Yes, with lots of wealth. I don't speak it, but I've seen it.

Yeah.

All right. I don't want to create a prison for myself. Exactly. Uh, using dollars instead of bars. Yeah. You know, I'd much rather just be happy and, and satisfied with what I got.

Yeah. Well, it sounds like you're on a great path, um, and I'm so happy for you from what you experienced in the you know, all the fallout of that, that you found this path to reinvent yourself. And now you're using that reinvention to build a better community. And that's just a great story. So I can't wait to see— I will pay $20 and come sit on the couch. I am— I'll pay $40 to go sit on the couch.

I want to— I'm sorry, I don't want to interrupt. As a fundraising tool for my school, Yeah, my first album. I had it, uh, remixed and, and remastered, and I'm making a limited edition album copies of those. Yeah, wax copies with the movie poster as the album cover. Nice. City of Me and Daz, uh, picture of me in downtown Dallas on the back cover. And I'm selling those for $50. Yeah, sign me up. I signed one and send it to the person, they donate $50 to the school. If you donate before a certain time, I'm going to add a link to watch the film before it comes into theaters.

Very nice. But again, tying it around the money, a funding mechanism for the school.

It's all about that. Yeah, right. Mine is coming. Yeah, they've already— the spirits have already told me yours is en route. Yeah. So now I have to do everything I can to get this facility built. Yeah. And the DRC said they would help me raise $40 million. Wow. To see that dream happen. I'm probably going to have to wash a lot of cars and stomp a lot of, you know, but I'm prayerful. Yeah. I want to see that happen.

I have no doubt you'll make it happen or it will happen with you as a vessel or you as the tool.

Thank you, sir.

You know, what an impressive story. I'm so glad. I'm going to call you Dot now. Yes, sir. I started with Tracy because I wasn't sure, but But you became Doc like in 2 minutes, right? So I'm delighted to now know you and I was delighted to meet Chris and I feel like I see the whole circle of this now.

Yeah. And before we wrap up, I do, I love the juxtaposition of how you've got the DOC, NWA gangster rap icon, but yet you light up every room you go into. In a positive, fun-loving way, completely different from the, the gangster kill 'em all type thing.

Yeah, I don't want to kill any of them. I know, I'd rather not. I'd rather make them laugh to death. So feed them, feed them these candies, man. Yeah, that'll light them up.

Oh, we got a whole bowl of them.

I love these.

The big room, part of the theme.

Doc, again, thank you so much for coming in. It's been a joy. I'm, I'm so grateful to be able to call you friend, and, uh, I love it.

Yeah, thanks, Ryan. Great episode. Thank you, Don. Thank you, sir.